Tiling News

Was in Topps today when overheard woman in tears because ’tiler’ had not sealed traventine tiles & grouted them. She was upset as her tiles were now full of white grout (in holes). Yours truly stepped in with a business card explaining I’d have a look at them for her & see if I could clean & then seal them.

It was only afterwards that I thought “What (if anything) will get the grout out of the tiles? Is HD Tile & Grout Cleaner OK? Then seal with Sealers Gold?

Cheers, Martyn 

Are the holes not meant to be filled?? i thought they were so as to give contrast between tile and grout, then seal again.

Otherwise all types of crap will get into holes and look terrible.

Or am i just missinfomed??????? 

Simon 

And inexperienced with natural stones 

If you don’t fill the holes with grout they only get filled up with sh*t (can I still say that now ) and extremely difficult to clean. A better colour grout such as limestone or sandstone would have looked far better than white! 

yep white and travertine sounds like disaster, as toots, i always use limestone. 

Not as inexperienced as i thought then 

I think it’s a pointless exercise really buying travertine and then filling it with grout????????.

Kev 

With travertine you cannot avoid getting grout in the holes. It is better to use a coloured grout as Mike has said. You can get travertine already filled.

Steve. 

The grout also strengthens the tile…

Jase 

So what’s the point 

Way back at the top of this Martyn asked a question, what can get the grout out?

The answer, I’m afraid is you can’t, not successfuly anyway, grout residue off the surface is another issue, but actual grout that has gone into the holes in the tiles is no different to the grout in the joints, in fact, it would be easier to remove the joints (as at least you could get a FEIN in them) than the holes.

What is the point of filling them? - well 1. on a small tile, it is virtually impossible not to and 2. in many situations (Shower, splash back, floor etc) it would be completely impractical to be left un-filled as others have said, it would only fill up with muck anyway. so most folk go for a similar coloured grout and deliberately fill them.

The only other choice is to buy pre-filled stone.

Is trav ever left unfilled? - yes of course, in areas such as lobbies, hallways etc on the walls, and especially with larger format tiles, this then becomes a different process with the joints being carefully ‘pointed’ as opposed to grouted in the traditonal way - something traditional stone masons are better suited to than tilers (simply because thay have worked that way with large slab stone for centuries)

Martyn, you can clean them (if they need cleaning) just use some heavy duty and a bit of poultice - all you will really do is maybe dislodge any surface particles, may improve the look. then you could seal with Sealers choice as you say, or, if you notice the tile and more importantly the grout darkening significantly when wet, and the customer prefers this look (in other words the wetting action ‘tones down’ the shade of the grout making it stand out less) then consider sealing with Enrich n Seal - this could be the best solution - its a fantastic sealer and it would lock in the wet look.

If this seems like an option you MUST TEST on an inconspicuous area - or a spare tile, and get the customer’s absolute acceptence as once it is in it is there for life and you won’t get it out - given she hates it as it is though………

make sure the tiling is allowed to dry thouroughly after any cleaning, before applying EnS and remeber how important it is to remove the surplus BEFORE it dries. Lastly, make sure she keeps it dry for at least 48 hours after sealing

best of luck

Ian 

I am genuinly not trying to be awkward here but what is the point of buying small travertine tiles with holes in them justto fill them up with a grout of your choice? A complete waste of time and money in my opinion!!!  

——————– 

Bibi4now

Kev 

the point is, personal taste. There are three choices: 

• Pre-filled - with cement or resin at the factory, usually on the slightly smoother, less ‘holey’ types, has more uniform and less rustic appearance 

• Left unfilled- in the few circumstances I explained - so it looks natural and ‘interesting’ but has to be in a situation where the only likely dirt is airborne dust 

• Filled with grout - this is a valid and popular look, as with some very rustic terracotta, the material looks nice, the rugged nature has a visual appeal and it can be (and has been for centuries) a practical flooring/cladding material in a variety of circumstances but the holes need to be filled so you see a lot of grout (mortar in the old days) - it’s all part of the look 

I just sealed a 150 m2 floor of very large format travertine with some big holes and on other tiles the entire tile was covered with a mass of tiny holes - the tile is approx 50% grout - but mixed in with all the others it looks great - the overall floor looks absolutely fantastic and the customer is delighted

It is just about choice - not everyone likes it just as not everyone likes terracotta, in Germany and Scandinavia for example, the opposite end of the spectrum is favoured - extremely smooth surfaces, very straight lines etc variety is the spice of life as they say 

Finally an answer that makes sense!!! Thank you Ian!

Tile Care 

Thanks to the Natural Stone course I may have my first tile cleaning job, so thanks to all the PITT and Aquamix guys for such a great and informative 2 days.

The job I have looked at is 15m2 of quarry, half of which is 100 years old and the other half reclaimed and laid a year ago, but very similar. However, some of the reclaimed tiles have a shine to them, while the original tiles have virtually none. The customer is looking to get a good match across the two, and I recommended;
1. a clean with Phosporic Acid Cleaner
2. a very deep scrub with Heavy Duty Tile Cleaner mixed with Poultice to get some stubborn marks out of the grout
3. Sealers Choice 15 applied - no shine, he likes it looking original and wants the reclaimed tiles to match the original floor.

My question is; could this shine on the reclaimed quarry tiles be in any way due to the firing process, or will it be old polish that I can remove with Sealer and Adhesive remover? I’ll do a test area before any work is undertaken, but I’d like to know if there is any chance the tiles are ‘naturally’ shiny, so I can forewarn the customer.

Not sure if there is an easy answer to this, but any opinions are gratefully received. And obviously I am using all Aquamix products.

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Trades-Direct

How and when to use acid cleaners.

Eliminate Grout Haze with Aqua Mix

What is Grout Haze?

Grout haze or bloom is the fine film of grout often left behind on the tile surface after grouting. The haze occurs as a result of the washing-off process where traces of the grout residue suspended in the washing–off water are not completely removed. Over the years there have been many dubious ways of dealing with this problem, I wish I had got a Pound for every time I heard a Tiler tell a customer “It’ll dry with a slight grey colour but don’t worry, leave it a day or so and then just dust it off”. The only thing this strategy achieves is to give the Tiler plenty of time to skip town with his cheque – never to be heard from again! Those with a slightly more conscientious approach to their work, typically return a couple of days later with the strongest brick acid they can get their hands on – often creating more problems than they solve.

The Truth about Acids

Before I go on I think it appropriate to discuss the use of strong acid cleaners in relation to grout haze or film. One of the main constituents of cement is calcium carbonate, typically from limestone (albeit in an altered form). Acids are used, as they will react with the calcium, breaking it down, effectively dissolving the cement in the grout.

Acid cleaners designed for brick cleaning are usually based on strong acids such as hydrochloric acid. These are designed to work on heavy deposits of cement such as lumps of dried mortar. Of course, if they can do that they will obviously break down the thin film of grout haze very easily. BUT! They will not stop there. Strong acid cleaners will go on working causing permanent damage to the grout joint. This can put large holes in the joint, turn it white and deposit even more grout haze on the tile surface.

For the safe removal of dried grout haze it is much better to use a cleaner based on the milder, phosphoric acid (phosphoric acid is the number 4 ingredient in the worlds most popular, carbonated drink!). The phosphoric Acid Cleaner works on very thin films of grout residue and then it is spent. In other words it will stop working long before it causes irreparable damage to the joint.

Bear in mind however:

• All acids can etch (or lighten) cement based grout joints.
• Do not use on acid sensitive surfaces such as marble or limestone

The truth is, there need not be a problem in the first place.

Prevention is Better than Cure

Racing to get the job done, only to have to return days later for an acid wash seems ridiculous when, with a little extra time and care during the washing –off process, the whole problem of grout haze can be prevented.

Here is how to avoid the formation of grout haze:

1. Remove as much of the surplus grout as possible using a squeegee.
2. After each sweep of the arm with the sponge, turn it over to a clean face. Then rinse it out thoroughly. For best results use a wash boy.
3. Change the rinse water regularly.
4. Optional (but beneficial!) During the final rinse, add a little Aqua Mix Grout Haze Clean-Up* to the washing–off water. Grout Haze Clean-Up is designed to prevent cement and latex from bonding to the tile surface. Once again, changing the rinse water frequently. Grout Haze Clean-Up is especially helpful in preventing the formation of grout haze when using modern polymer modified grouts on porcelain tiles.

* - Do not use on acid sensitive surfaces such as marble or limestone

For existing situations or where the above procedure has not been adopted and a grout haze is present:

Grout Haze removal – Within 10 days of Grouting

Although cement based grout may harden within 24 hours, it can take between 5 and 10 days for it to reach a full cure. If acids, even the safer phosphoric acids are used during this period they can cause irreparable damage to the joint.

Instead try using Aqua Mix Grout Haze Clean-Up NEAT:

1. Apply Grout Haze Clean-Up directly to the affected area.
2. Allow it to sit for 3 to 5 minutes, longer if necessary.
3. Agitate with a scrub brush or white nylon pad.
4. Mop up the dirty solution and rinse well with clean water

Grout Haze Removal – For Grout that is Older than 10 Days

1. Sweep or vacuum the surface
2. Pre-wet the surface with water
3. Mix 1 part Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner to 5 parts water. Stronger solution may be used if necessary
4. Apply the solution to a manageable area, do not allow the solution to dry out
5. Allow to dwell for 1 to 2 minutes
6. Agitate with a scrub brush or white nylon pad
7. Mop up dirty solution
8. Rinse thoroughly with clean water
9. Repeat if necessary

Grout Haze Removal – Stubborn or Problem Grouts

For stubborn grout haze mix Aqua Mix Poultice powder into a wet slurry with Grout Haze Clean-Up (less than 10 days) or with Phosphoric Acid Cleaner and water (after 10 days).

Poultice is a fine, mildly abrasive and highly absorbent clay powder that can help boost the cleaning performance in 3 ways:
1. It acts as a safe, non-scratching scouring powder
2. It absorbs the ‘dirt’ helping to carry it away in the rinsing water
3. It helps to ‘deliver’ the cleaning solution into small pores, crevices etc.

Quick Product Selector
Situation: Aqua Mix Problem Solver

During Washing-Off Process:Grout Haze Clean-Up added to washing water
Grout haze less than 10 days old, Normal: Grout Haze Clean-Up used neat
Grout haze less than 10 days old,Stubborn: as above + Add Poultice
Grout haze over 10 days old, Normal: Phosphoric Acid Cleaner
Grout haze over 10 days old, Stubborn: as above + Add Poultice

The information here is intended as a guide only. For detailed information always read the bottle labels and always test first on a small inconspicuous area to determine desired results.
Trades-direct

Ask Ian

no need to be quite so cynical Scissors - sometimes it is easier to talk about a problem than answer it succinctly on a post, especially when there are several things to consider - but I will have a go anyway.

Rocky, Steve is right, you have a grout haze problem, and Toots has answered you well. Sometimes it is also referred to as grout bloom, and as Toots says, it is a very fine residue or film of grout, left on the tile surface after the grout washing-off process.

So how to get rid of it, well first thing is that you say it is a stone floor, but you don’t say what type of grout you used (cement-based, polymer modified?) Neither did you say what type of stone it is. This is VERY important, why? - because it can affect the ultimate solution. Lastly, you did not say when the job was completed - in other words how old is the grout haze?

Grout haze is the thinnest of films of grout, well not actually ‘grout’ as grout is a mixture (usually) of cement, fine sand and some polymers or plasticisers-like additives (even the non-polymer-modified has some, just not as much). The haze is formed when the dissolved parts of the grout are left in suspension on the tile/stone surface after washing. There will be little or no sand left there as this does not dissolve, thus it will have been more easily picked up during the wash off process. Once dry, the water has obviously gone so what you are left with on the surface is fine cement with a varying amount of additive(depending on what type of grout you used). As Toots also pointed out; cement has a progressive cure, getting harder over a a period of time, so for example it will be much more likely that you could remove a moderate, cement haze after 24 hours with a white pad and maybe some water, than if you were to leave it for 5 to 10 days. So speed is of the essence here.

The usual remedy for this problem is to use an acid-based cleaner because we need to break down the cement. Cement is basically a modified form of calcium carbonate (any chemists among you may give a more detailed/chemically accurate explanation but this is sufficient to understand the process we need to use) - the only way we can break this down (assuming it has had a few days to reach a certain level of cure, so as to render water and a white pad ineffective) is to attack (react with/dissolve) the calcium component in the cement and for that we need an acid.

BUT WAIT a moment! - let us now consider the stone:

Some stones are acid sensitive, if they are then we have to think again - we cannot use an acid on any stone that is made up of or contains calcium carbonate as the acid will dissolve/etch that stone as eagerly as it does the haze.

So, first of all, check if your stone is acid-sensitive, if you do not know then ask your supplier what it is, the following is a list of popular stone that fall into that category, it is by no-means exhaustive so if in doubt , ask:

• Marble (polished or tumbled)
• Limestone
• travertine
• terrazzo

One other point, the more highly polished the stone, the worse the etching effect of an acid will be.

If you find that you have an acid sensitive stone, then please post again and we will go down another route.

OK, assuming it IS safe to use an acid, we need to find the mildest, safest one we can get our hands on - why? - well because we want to destroy the thin film of haze, without doing any lasting damage to the actual grout in the joint - which at the end of the day will react EXACTLY THE SAME as the haze. It is for this reason that most companies use the Mild PHOSPHORIC ACID as a basis for grout haze removal products (Phos acid for short or even PA - my fingers are aching now!). PA is a mild acid (mild enough to be the 4th major ingredient in a well known American, caramel flavored carbonated drink!) it will work on a very thin film and then it is exhausted, a spent force, and so will do minimal damage to the joint, all though as I said in my article “the truth about acids”, (now in the library section I believe) it will do some damage as ALL ACIDS will etch to some degree - so it is a trade off - we want one that is powerful enough to do maximum damage to the haze whilst being weak enough to do minimal damage to the joint itself.

There are several on the market the best known are HG Extra, Lithofin’s Cement Away and of course our own Phosphoric Acid Cleaner (even handed answer I think?) and they will all do the job detailed above. Provided the grout is more than a few days old, then the worst they should do to the joint itself is a very mild etching, manifested as a slight lightening of the colour, this will be far less noticeable on a standard grey floor grout than on a pigmented one such as a dark charcoal or on popular colours like sandstone. It is sometimes advisable to give the entire floor the same treatment so that the grout is not rendered patchy - but you would also have to be absolutely certain that you are happy with the result, should the colour be affected (TEST AN INCOSPICUOUS AREA FIRST!!!)

One other point, I must stress DO NOT go out and get a brick cleaning acid from the local builders merchant - this is usually based on Hydrochloric acid and it is FAR TOO STRONG and will result in some degree of permanent damage to the joint (there are plenty of tilers out there who would argue and say they have done this for years and never had a problem but they are not always around later-on when the problems arise as a result of their actions weakening the grout).

How do you do it? apply a DILUTE solution of the chosen cleaner, I can only advise on the use of the Aqua Mix one, Phosphoric Acid Cleaner - but they are all pretty similar. Dilute say 5 parts water:1 part PAC to begin with, apply to the floor (making sure you isolate or protect any non acid and non-water safe surfaces). Leave to dwell for a couple of minutes then agitate (scrub) using a white nylon pad or nylon bristle scrubbing brush then mop up the solution. After this RINSE the floor down with clean water to remove any traces of the cleaner, remove the water, and even rub the floor dry with a towel if you like - this again will help remove any last traces. Let it dry thoroughly for a few hours and then re-inspect the floor. Dare I say it? “Repeat if necessary” - the idea is that it is better to use these weak acids several times if need be, than it is to go steaming in with a strong, inappropriate acid and wreak all kinds of irreparable havoc.

The above should work for most ’standard’ cases, if you find out that you have an acid sensitive stone, or that you have a heavily polymer modified grout - post again and I’ll try to offer an alternative solution

Cheers

Ian

Trades-direct