Tile Fixer Association
Hello all,
As most of you should be aware there was a meeting organised on the 3rd of March to discuss a future for ourselves (Tile Fixers) As with all things great interest to start with everyone going, yes we need it, yes we will support it blah blah blah. I must admit I could not attend the meeting myself but a few hardy Tile Fixers made the journey and a few things were discussed. I say well done to these guys and girls? for getting the ball rolling.
Now I am not PITT trained but I am a member of the TTA which I pay my dues but I have not seen Tile Fixers representing Tile Fixers there seems to be lots of suits but maybe that is not the fault of the TTA maybe it is the fault of ourselves the Tile Fixers not asking what is going on and who is making the decisions that is changing our industry. So you maybe asking where am I going with this????
Well as I said I am not PITT trained and I would be interested to find out what the actual figures for this forum are ie Percentage PITT trained against non PITT trained. Jase/Paul could you provide??
When any Assocciation is formed you need:
A: Interest
B: What people want from the Association
C: Some brave souls that will act as a Steering group
D: The start of a constitution
E: A meeting to agree constitution
F: Elect a committee
Now I was not at the original meeting but I have made some suggestions and a couple of people have suggested I make them public 
We know there is interest for an association and I know that there were a lot that could not make the meeting but I am willing to make a 1100 mile round trip for the next meeting. However to get this of the ground would you as TILE FIXERS get involved. We need to get the planned association know to the outside world rather than just the forum.
I suggest if agreed that a Draft Letter is released and that everyone in the forum prints of 10 copies and then sends it out to tilers in your area. It is not as if a few stamps are going to break the bank.
If we get 50 more tilers interested it is 50 more than today.
Please let me know your thoughts and lets get some feedback suggestions.
Or being Devils advocat do we approach the TTA and get some answers? Maybe it has been tried already?
These are my thoughts and not the thoughts of the guys that turned up at the meeting. Who I take my hat of to getting the ball rolling.
All the best,
Gary
Highlander
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I would love to tackle projects that are different but sometimes (apart from the helpline at PITT and the knowledge of the forum users) there doesn’t seem to be much information anywhere else as manufacturers will only give out information regarding THEIR products only while there may be other or better alternatives out there!!!
Andrew
I am currently Chairman of General Purposes Committee (GPC) of the TTA. This is one of 4 sub committees in the TTA, (the other 3 being Training, Marketing and Technical).
My group has 3 people currently in day to day tiling work and 2 that have moved on to running their own businesses but still have good contact with the sharp end and of course other people with links related to the industry as a whole. For a photo of our committee and a brief description of some of the fascinating work we do, please see the next issue of TSJ after Easter.
If this message is removed I will keep it short for now.
We meet regularly and are always open to direction from tilers as to what they want from our Association, as this sector is key to our future. My question therefore is, why not contact the Association with your thoughts on how to make it better, rather than condemning us as ’suits’? 
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Kev
Firstly some 16 years ago the TTA thought my training courses were the best thing since slice bread while running under the banner of BAL, however when I set up PITT running a much advance level of that same course Mr Bob Howard kindly sent me a letter stating a cowboy image, this was maybe as I’m not a manufacturer??
My communication with the CITB started some 4 years ago with Paul Grummit then Oliver Farrel lead to nothing, they both stated even after much work and planning to get the TTA and CITB talking with the private training centres came to again nothing.
Once a new association is made public people start to arrange meetings etc and now a registration on this forum.
So please do not ask why people don’t talk the TTA.
I may come across bitter but that because I am.
As for the Tile Fixers out there I think they will answer for themselves here at Tile Forums.
Also we do not remove posts unless they break the Forum rules unlike the TTA forum (Ref Jason Brunts post) on training courses.
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I am a member of the TTA and as a Fixer I have not investigated really what I get for my money, however if you look at the number of actual fixer member on the TTA website there are maybe 200 - 300 which must be very disappointing for the TTA when you look at the number of Fixers that are in the UK.
Now I know it must feel like this Forum is anti TTA however this is not the case people within the industry forget the fixers are the guys that keep them in work without us no tiles adhesives get sold, I know the same can be said that without the shops etc we would have no jobs. But at the end of the day I feel as a fixer that there are decisions being made that affect our lives and it feels like we the Fixers are not getting the chance to voice our concerns and issues.
Maybe I am not seeing what is going on behind the scenes but it feels like we are being guided down a garden path and we aint got any control. Anyone involved in the forum are not out to lower the standards of tiling infact it is the direct opposite we are all wanting more control better conditions and a better service for our customers. There are far to many cowboys out there but when you see the TTA dictating the rules and they only have a limited amount of members that are fixers why should they dictate the way forward ??
As I have said I am a member of the TTA and if the TTA would take issues on like this forum is trying to do, and get a decent membership so they can get a true picture of the issues of Fixers maybe there would not be as many questions being raised. From what I can make out form chats and issues here the majority of Fixers here feel that there are to many Manufactuers involved in “helping” make decisions in our future.
I hope you will respond to our postings and as Paul said it is an open forum and as long as we play by forum rules everyone is welcome. Maybe you should start talks with the proposed PTFA and move forward because if you look at the numbers the PTFA could overtake the TTA membership quite easily if they made a big push.
Sorry for the long winded response but at the end of the day I want the best for our industry and I actually feel that both groups do as well.
Regards,
Gary
Highlander
A quick intro about my involvement with the tile industry…
I am MD of Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd. Some 30+ years ago we handled our first ceramic tile container shipments from Spain to the UK which has led to us now moving some 80+ trailers a week from Europe almost totally devoted to tiles and related product, and about 120 full load containers from all over the world. Early in my career I found that the people in the industry were approachable and friendly and soon got involved in visiting the various overseas tile fairs where I developed relations with tile importers large and small and had great fun and developed good friendships. We became members of the NTA and in 2000 when the TTA was formed from this and the NMTFA, the manufacturers’ association, BCTC I was invited to get involved with GPC. This sub-committee handle the day to day running, vetting new applications, quality issues on tiling projects, budgets etc. In ‘02 I was invited to Chair the sub-committee and in the same year became elected to the main Board. I also use tiles extensively both at home and in our offices as I love the way this material transforms the looks of a room or office, and as a consequence of having hundreds of square metres laid for me have learned a little over the years about the retail and fixing aspects, and have experienced the good, the bad and the ugly of tile fixing.
Although the industry has made great strides since I first came into contact with it, I am passionate that there is still a lot to be done. Mainly by improving the perceptions about quality of the products, the fixing, retailing, education and after care.
Now to respond to some of the issues raised:
Obviously if the TTA is not and cannot be of help to you and there is a need for an alternative then there might not be much more that we can do. But have the avenues been fully explored? It is of concern to me sometimes that we hear we are a bunch of ‘suits’ and come over as unapproachable. In my experience most of the people involved in the TTA are addressing these perceptions, are approachable, and are very interested in hearing from the whole of the tile industry for ideas on how best to take things forwards for the mutual benefit of all. Tile fixers and tiling contractors are easily the most important section of our industry, and this is reflected in the fact that new recruits are the greatest in this area – albeit from an unsatisfactorily low level. Definitely work in progress here.
The TTA has a great Marketing committee and the jewel in the crown is the Technical committee that has done a huge amount for the industry. Because of clever marketing (with a miniscule budget) we are beginning to project an image of the TTA as being far bigger and better funded than it is in reality, but apart from Lesley Reid at the secretariat, all the participants give off their time freely with no payment or expenses. We therefore rely on the goodwill and ‘volunteer ethic’ of the community to help keep up the work that we do.
I set up the TTA discussion forum in about ’02 but have to admit that it is nowhere near as nice to use (and most importantly so well supported as this one – whoever has been responsible for getting this platform up to its current level of interaction gets my congratulations, and not a little envy).
Regarding Paul’s comments
The events you describe are from a period when I had little or no involvement with the Association so will deal only with what little I know. Your name has cropped up from time to time in the context of being a rival set up to the TTA, principally in the area of training. As this is a field far removed from my limited expertise I have tended to leave these matters to people whose views I respect. However I would welcome a dialog with you, and perhaps we can communicate further via this forum and/or privately, as I am always interested in getting the picture from both sides.
I am a moderator on the forum and have only ever removed posts that are clearly inappropriate such as the usual Viagra style rubbish. Where a post is remotely connected with tiling, training, courses etc., then I leave these messages for other more experienced moderators to deal with.
Regarding Kev’s request to list what the TTA does for Fixers.
I am happy to do this with permission from the forum organisers ( I appreciate that commercially/politically – excuse my naivety on these subjects - it may not be acceptable to have the TTA appearing to advertise itself on this site)
Now to Gary’s comments
As at the end of last year we have over 260 tiling contractors and tile fixer members and this sector is both the largest and the fastest growing, the other sectors (in rough order of numbers) being Distribution, Retailing, Manufacturing, Tile Agents, support services and affiliated training centres. I (and more importantly the TTA as an organisation) agree with you Gary that these numbers are far too low, and we really want to progress this.
Regarding being led down the garden path and having no control. In which areas are you concerned about?
As regards the influence of the manufacturers. It is true that prior to the formation of the TTA the manufacturers paid largish wadges of money into their disparate trade associations, and by merging these into 1 they have saved themselves a lot of subs. Like any individual or body they fight hard to preserve their influence but we all know that manufacturing in this country is having a tough time of it, and the numbers and the levels of their subs are not nearly as influential as they have been in the past. But it is not just about historical influences. The manufacturers have the premises to host meetings, conferences, forums and training days at little or no cost to the TTA, and have the personnel, experience and resources to have their technical staff get involved in standards conferences (often taking place overseas) that are funded largely or in part by the manufacturer themselves. They also have the budget to sponsor events that are of benefit to the community. In an ideal world this is not perfect, but the realities of the budget force this upon us. We work hard to ensure that information is passed on and that TTA representatives work on behalf of the industry as a whole and not just their own firm’s individual vested interest.
Finally regarding Branty’s posting regarding my location
I am now based in Cornwall these last 17 years. Although originated from London (Clapham area) and mum n dad still live there. The TTA has its secretarial offices in Beckenham but as members come from all over the country, we usually meet at the premises of manufacturers, retailers and distributors who have the facility to have meetings hosted at their premises, so these tend to take place all over the place and rotate. We have an annual tile fixer’s dinner in and around the London area, but are conscious that we must not be seen as purely a London and SE association so have arranged events and meetings all over. Plans are advanced to have 2-3 forum meetings in Scotland, N Ireland and Wales in the coming 18 months.
Finally
Thank you for allowing me to get my thoughts across. As the initiator of a discussion forum for the TTA, I am all for discussion and open debate. When I get the time to get round to it I will read this forum’s posts and its rules and culture, and will be very happy to participate further if you wish, because at first glance this forum is achieving what I had hoped would occur with our forum.
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Anyone can contact me via telephone on 01782 566166
or e-mail pta@professional-itt.com
Again thank you.
dont be afraid of imputting even if you know little about it this is a layed back forum except if you are giving direct advise then make sure you get your facts right as people do follow advise on here so please bear this in mindi like the tta golf soc
Interestingly enough since I replied to this thread, Tile UK magazine have published a voice mp3 interview (which I have attached here) with David Forbes, the current Chairman of the TTA. In it there is discussion of the alternative association and Pitt training
If for any reason you can’t open this attachment then here is a link to the TileUK web site - you do need to register, but it is a very interesting site and also includes an article about your work towards creating an alternative tilers association.
The link is:
http://www.tileuk-magazine.com/articleList.asp?category=32
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As for the membership benefits that he highlighted:
* The fee includes public liability insurance
* A technical helpline
* A ‘gala dinner’ in April
* The public have more confidence in members ( not sure how that stacks up)
Well ………… if that’s all that the TTA offers, the industry certainly needs the PTFA.
And who is Marc Humphries at PITT????
Andrew
(don’t have the time to register … and not really interested in joining the TileUK newsletter list)
Andrew
Mark Lewis
Tile fixers have been given an alternative to membership of the Tile Association with the introduction of the Professional Tile Fixers Association (PTFA).
The new association, chaired by Paul Riley, md of PITT, the private training school, is the latest symptom of the ongoing rift between private training schools and TTA.
At issue is The Tile Association’s refusal to recognise training centres which do not instruct to NVQ level.
Riley said the insistence on only recognising the ‘flawed’ NVQ training programmes ignored the fact on the ground that ‘86% of trained fixers are outside the NVQ’.
The framework of the new association, which has held its first board meeting, is well advanced with the rate of annual membership already agreed at £175.
David Forbes, TTA chairman is poised to attempt a peace deal between his own board and the new association that would include some form of recognition for fixers trained by reputable schools.
The devil will be in the detail as Forbes attempts to create a tier of recognition below NVQ 1, which will do enough to gain the support of the schools, while also satisfying the TTA board that their inclusion will not dilute NVQ primacy.
The proposals will include:
Creating a system like in Germany which has three layers of qualifications, from apprentice tiler, to tiler and finally master tiler;
Bringing some of the most vocal critics of The Tile Association within the organisation so they can work on reforming it from the inside rather than challenging it from the outside.
Forbes said he was confident that he could find a middle way to satisfy all parties, but his proposals, which will not even be heard until TTA’s board reconvenes on 3 April, are unlikely to come in time to head off the inauguration of the PTFA.
Riley, who has been trying to win recognition for his training school for the past three years, said he was still willing to talk but added the PTFA had gained a life of its own, which he was not necessarily in a position to stop.
‘It is not about me anymore, it is about the tile fixers who are demanding an alternative to TTA.’
The idea for a rival tile fixers’ association has been around since Riley was snubbed for membership of the TTA in February 2004, but the concept has gained ground in recent months, as PITT-trained fixers have aired their grievances about TTA on PITT’s web forum.
Forbes said that part of his proposal would be to co-opt some of the central critics from the forum, likely to include Riley, to work closely with TTA on training and the issues which most affect fixers.
He admitted that there was much to be learned from the private tile fixer schools.
But, despite the olive branch, he was nevertheless withering in his condemnation of the new association which he said would never gain government recognition. He said that creating additional associations seven years after TTA was formed out of the three existing tile lobby groups, would also represent a retrograde step.
‘I’m disappointed,’ he said. ‘The reality is that the government will only recognise one association, and the training bodies which it recognises are NVQs.
The reason we have been so insistent on this in the past is that the government insists on this as a route to training.
‘There are a number of issues with NVQs just like there are with O-levels and A-levels, but they are the measurables.’
He added that TTA was not a money making institution, compared with the training schools and the PITT forum which is sponsored. Board members did not even claim back petrol money for journeys to meetings, he said.
‘But I want to be inclusive. The enemy is not Topps. The enemy is not each other. The enemy is carpets and vinyl.’
Of course we will try to offer good value tiling accessories and products when we can, but people are free to find what they want on the internet. We believe that our prices are very competitve and the very best online prices.
And the very bad faux pas of “Mark Humphries from PITT” - that’s a really careless oversight.
http://www.tileuk-magazine.com/articles.asp?article_id=5522
The interview talks about PITT training then mentions Mark Humphrey’s, the two are in no way connected I feel a telephone apology is in order and this link removed as our legal professionals will be looking into this within 24 hours of tonight, we are in no way connected with Mark Humphrey’s and would like an verbal apology, anyone publicizing a story should work on facts not allowing fiction to be sent over the air.
P.I.T.T. operated by Paul Riley not Mark Humphrey’s as stated in the interview.
Please sort this out A.S.A.P.
Paul Riley
Managing Director
Anyway before I get started, here’s a link to a post about the TIGS (Tile Industry Golf Society) for those of you that way inclined… http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?act=ST&f=68&t=3909
Regarding the audio interview. First of all I wouldn’t have the balls to do an interview like that - I much prefer the medium of a forum where I can put my thoughts down in writing and take some care with accuracy. (which I will probably now disprove by writing the following…)
Paul I am not a spokesman for David Forbes or Tile UK but feel sure this is a genuine mistake that will surely be resolved without recourse to lining lawyers pockets.
I have some experience of how these interviews work. Often the interviewer sends you a transcript of the questions they will be asking which gives you time to prepare. In this case it may have been Tile Uk and not David who made the mistake. I can easily envisage the transcript mistakenly including the wrong name associated with your firm, or perhaps something was lost in the edit. But as I say I am not directly involved so can only speculate.
I have tried to hear the interview on 2 occasions at work but failed due to interruptions and then once yesterday at home, but failed again when the demands of my kids also interrupted. Which underlines my belief that a forum is a far better place to conduct dissemination of info and debate.
I would like to make a few points about the interview, David, Pitt training and Tile UK
From the 85% that I heard of the interview I think that some credit should accrue to Tile UK for airing this debate, and to David for putting his head on the block to be fired at. I think that the schools and the essential problem of recognition and alternative associations did get a good hearing and I feel that the TTA are clearly interested in having a dialog to try to move things forward. Whether anything comes of it is another matter. Why do I think this – let me quote from Andrews post..
| QUOTE |
| Hi Richard,I listened with interest. There was one key question that David Forbes was asked in relation to the ’tiling school’ graduates (of which I am one) that he failed to answer. The question was in relation to NVQ recognition and if ’tiling school’ graduates would receive the same recognition from the TTA as NVQ scholars or if there was a way that the training could be linked. The interview seemed to be cut at that stage????
As for the membership benefits that he highlighted: Well ………… if that’s all that the TTA offers, the industry certainly needs the PTFA. |
I have still not seen any answers, and I’m sorry Andrew but negative one’s like your’s we get all the time (in all walks of life). Fine you’ve told us that these benefits are of no interest to you.
What do you want us to do? Time is short – do you want us to faff about trying to second guess what you want or are you finally going to actually contribute positively and suggest something?
I’m sorry Andrew this is not specifically aimed at you. The fact that you are reading this thread and writing in is a contribution in itself, but I hope you appreciate the frustration of people that have come into this field from a desire to help, but 9 out of 10 they only hear the moans and get little or no contributions.
Finally David Forbes is the boss of a Company that employs hundreds and his work for the TTA is entirely for free. Almost certainly there might be ‘some’ commercial benefits to him as an individual and corporately by heading this association for 2 years but the downside in loss of time to his enterprise easily outweighs this. I think we should cut him some slack for attempting to address an issue openly and one which is clearly of substantial importance
This is getting to be an overlong post again. I’ll cut now and revert with some more thoughts asap
Richard Choroszewski
Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd.
mailto: RichardC@nsa.com
One being a sign that the public can associate as being a quality tradesperson, like a badge of quality. Putting a TTA logo on stationery wouldn’t do that in my opinion. The public don’t know what TTA is. I don’t think it would make a potential customer choose a quotation with a TTA logo on it rather than one without.
The second thing being support/training. At some point everybody will have a dispute with a customer, or a customer will have a dispute with a tradesperson. It would be useful to have an independant person who the tradesperson/customer could call in on such an occasion to mediate. As for training, I am referring to an association that brings together manufacturers and fixers, for example, to demonstrate new products.
I don’t see public liability as being a main benefit as we all have to have it anyway. I can buy it cheaper myself than paying to join TTA to gain it.
I have read with interest your replies and posts on this Forum.
My own thoughts are any association regardless of trade must be useful to its members and be accurate and informative. There is a need for an association that has a recognised form of training for its membership and if that were to involve Apprentice, Tiler and Master Tiler as per the German system then so be it.
What I know to be fact, is that Paul Riley and the team at PITT train all delegates to a very high standard by covering the NVQ syllabus and more besides. The training is dedicated with a high ratio of trainers to delegates and more importantly all the delegates pay for the course and therefore are keen to learn and consequently make sure they get value for money. Therefore you must agree they have a captive audience to start.
I tried personally to follow the NVQ route after completing my training at PITT which as a financially stable person and not claiming benefits of any kind the training college wanted £3000 from me for a two year course. The argument therefore that PITT looks to take money therefore fades into insignificance as far as I am concerned.
That all said, I enrolled onto an NVQ course through the college a place I was grateful for at the time as it meant I could do some tiling 3 days a week and do the NVQ course the other 2 days. I left the course after 4 weeks (8 Days of training). This decision was based on two factors the first being I learned absolutely nothing in those 8 days and secondly because of this I felt I was wasting £3,000. The NVQ is aimed at 17 year olds who leave school not at mature people who wannt to learn a trade. I personally know two tilers who went the NVQ route from school and openly admit they have learnt more from this forum than in college on the NVQ course. I intervieweed a 19 year old last week who is just about to qualify and become a tiler. I asked some very simple questions like the difference between class b and class aa adhesives, the acceptable weights on Plasterboard and Plaster, the minimum grout gaps for walls and floors etc nothing complicated. He did not have a clue what I was talking about. That man will be a qualified tiler to government standards next month out there with a van and fixing tiles to peoples walls and floors.
So IMO ultimately we do need an association that controls workable standards,
provides further training and courses, has a technical helpline, a system of redress both for the fixer and the client and finally a recognised Trademark such as Corgi.
This is ultimately as I perceive it what the PTFA wants to achieve.
Kev
What is TTA doing to promote tiling as a skilled trade. As far as I can see, nothing.
Steve who has just left a well known college came in to see me last week, I asked him how the college lecturing was he said CRAP I spent 98% of my time ticking boxes so the students got a lecturer for 2% of there day thats why I left he says. But does anyone take any notice I don’t think so.
So we might as well give up knocking now guys as there is no one in.
I am putting together a skills test, then we will get the CITB involved I will ask them to send one NVQ student and we will provide a PITT delegate then we will see who passes and who fails
3 hours practical 2 hours written paper, will be interesting, and comments anyone??????
WALL AND FLOOR TILINGwww.daveyoungtiling.co.uk
With the statement by the TTA and the artical in Tile UK it is focusing Paul as the big bad wolf and is implying it is his association which is taking the focus of the main issue that Tilers are wanting a real voice and to be recognised for their skills.
It so happens that Paul has been banging his head against the wall for years with what we have been talking about here lately. But we need the TTA and everyone else to understand that there are a lot of tilers that are not PITT trained wanting a voice. Again another But: if we dont get the word out to people other than what come to this forum there will not be a PTFA worth talking about.
Maybe we need to sit down with the TTA and get some dialogue going that will benifit Tilers.
I agree with Impressions joe public dont know what the TTA logo stands for so there is a branding fault there and unless the TTA can get more tilers to join they are going to struggle as well.
Highlander
KevAnyone got a better suggestion?
Gary
| QUOTE |
Tilers need: - a Badge of Quality - a recognised Trademark such as Corgi. - elevated to the perceived status as a skilled trade - I agree with Impressions joe public dont know what the TTA logo stands for so there is a branding fault there and unless the TTA can get more tilers to join they are going to struggle as well. - I want an association that is recognised by the public and actually does something for the fixers and the public alike. - The problem is the public at large believe tiling is a pastime and not a skilled job. |
| QUOTE |
Problems with the TTA are… - TTA Logo - public don’t know it - What is TTA doing to promote tiling as a skilled trade. As far as I can see, nothing. - So we might as well give up knocking now guys as there is no one in - With the statement by the TTA and the artical in Tile UK it is focusing Paul as the big bad wolf |
I don’t read the Tile UK interview as being negatively disposed to any individual or school. Although it does point out rightly in my view that some schools offering a 2 or 3 days course in tiling are unlikely to be of any real benefit to a tiler or to his prospective customers. The offer to meet and discuss the issues that join us and divide us is real.
| QUOTE |
You are looking for an association to provide.. - support and training - dispute resolution and mediation - bring together mfrs, fixers - public liability cover - useful - accurate - informative - recognised form of training - So IMO ultimately we do need an association that controls workable standards - provides further training and courses - system of redress both for the fixer and the client - we need to see the PTFA as a voice for all Tilers not a voice for PITT trained tilers. It is important that the word gets out there to the tilers that have not been PITT trained or have found this forum by chance. - there are a lot of tilers that are not PITT trained wanting a voice. - Maybe we need to sit down with the TTA and get some dialogue going that will benifit Tilers. |
As regards the benefits listed. All of these things are already available to members of the TTA. Now there are some areas (such as training for NVQ qualifications) that need a lot more work. But the work is being done. If we are not serving the tile community in any important areas then we need to know about it, and these issues will be addressed. Hence one of the reasons for my interest in this forum.
| QUOTE |
Other concerns… - The argument therefore that PITT looks to take money - The NVQ is aimed at 17 year olds who leave school not at mature people who want to learn a trade - once finished he ripped into me saying what you were doing there is wrong, - I started putting these points to the association some 15 years ago - the NVQ has never created one tradesman - the college lecturing was he said CRAP I spent 98% of my time ticking boxes so the students got a lecturer for 2% of there day - your basically wasting your time the citb is run by people that know nothing about tiling - its all government backed and everyone in it is blinkered colleges are in it to rip off students and government bodies that’s why it takes you 2 years to get an nvq - then its supposed to be work based evidence its all paper work and more money for the colleges its a vicious circle although every body is supposed to have cscs cards and be qualified only if you are a foreign national or unemployed will you get anyhelp most of the fully qualified trades out there are having to re-train to do the same job as with new rules about to be implemented a plumber cant fit bathroom cabinets with out an interiors nvq a carpenter can’t fit studding with out another nvq etc etc where will it all end i think you either go with the flow or sink if anyone else has an answer i would be interested - as for your skills test i know who will come out on top paul a pitt trained person any day but that will not convince the citb they only work to government guidelines - I intervieweed a 19 year old last week who is just about to qualify and become a tiler. He did not have a clue what I was talking about - That man will be a qualified tiler to government standards next month |
If Paul had problems with the association 15 years ago then maybe its time to talk, especially as the TTA was only formed in 2000. I am not trying to make a slick point here, but to ask that if things started to go wrong that long time ago then a fresh approach from both sides might be worth considering. Also an Association that is not yet 7 years old has a long way to go to meeting the demands and aspirations of the community it was formed to serve.
The other comments are general moans that I hear all the time in the tile industry. Problems with training youngsters, NVQs, poor quality of college lecturers, ticking boxes ( what I call the blinkered approach) and lastly government standards, regulations etc. How the hell are all these the fault of the TTA? Give us a break!
| QUOTE |
Finally… - This new association will struggle to gain government support due to the nature of the society we live in, but the fight must start somewhere, and i feel this great forum is as good a starting point as any. |
Yes this is a great forum. I helped start the TTA forum in 2002 but ours is nothing like as well supported as this one, and this thread alone proves it
Congratulations on a job well done.
Richard Choroszewski
Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd.
mailto: RichardC@nsa.com
So are you saying that there is a poor quality of college lecturers???
Sorry to put you on the spot
Blaming college lecturers and anyone else in the firing line. If the TTA can’t change Government standards who can? Perhaps you are hoping that there is an MP who was a tile fixer in a previous life!!!
I bet the Gala Dinner runs well though!!! Make sure all the Mega important awards go to the right people. Get the priorities right like spending a couple of thousand pounds on Emma Jesson to present the awards.
The quicker we get the PTFA sorted the better.
Kev
Everyone who’se opinions I respect on the subject and have a great pedigree (both TTA and non TTa, and on the TTA forum and on this forum) in tile fixing, tells me that 2-3 days training is insufficient to produce a qualified tiler that can begin to earn a living from his trade.
This is my personal opinion (and I daresay here you need to appreciate that tiling is not my profession - so I am potentially standing up to be fired on) I can see the value of 2-3 day courses in certain instances, say as:
- an introduction ( a suck and see but with no formal approval to carry on a tiling trade resulting)
- upgrade from 1 skill level to the next
- cross training in a different speciality, say swimming pools
Paul, I stumbled on this forum and got involved in this thread when I saw that the tile industry appears to be heading for a split. Because of my involvement in GPC which among other things looks after recruitment (of which as I said earlier tilers are the fastest growing sector of new applications) this is my area of operations so I got stuck in. But the training of tilers is quite clearly an area where my understanding of the issues are obviously far less than yours and other tilers and TTA members, so I hope you and the rest of the community accept here that I can’t get too involved (nor appear to represent the TTA view on the specific issues of training and schools) which are obviuously matters close to your own heart. What I will happily deal with is what the community wants from a trade association (of course including all aspects such as training, standards, qualifications, back up, dispute resolution, technical inspections, insurance etc).
But isn’t it good that there is this debate, and the desire to move things forward in the education and training and schools arena?
Paul, while it would certainly not be me that conducts a detailed discussion with you from the TTA side about the training and schools aspects that you raise concerns about, I can assure you that my colleagues and I would be happy to meet with you and representatives of other schools to establish common ground and a way forward.
Richard Choroszewski
Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd.
mailto: RichardC@nsa.com
| QUOTE |
So are you saying that there is a poor quality of college lecturers??? |
Of course there is good and bad in all walks of life
Richard Choroszewski
Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd.
mailto: RichardC@nsa.com
| QUOTE |
That is exactly the sort of response I expected but hoped in my heart I wouldn’t get. You have skimmed over the salient points and replied with a blase attitude.Blaming college lecturers and anyone else in the firing line. If the TTA can’t change Government standards who can? Perhaps you are hoping that there is an MP who was a tile fixer in a previous life!!! I bet the Gala Dinner runs well though!!! Make sure all the Mega important awards go to the right people. Get the priorities right like spending a couple of thousand pounds on Emma Jesson to present the awards. The quicker we get the PTFA sorted the better |
The ‘blaming’ of college lecturers was not made by me in the thread you replied to, these were quotes taken directly from this forum which I was responding to. I am not ‘blaming’ anyone just seeing that there is a need to do something here and doing the best I can in responding to that need
I ‘hope’ for a lot of things but realise that progress is not down to chance or a lucky break with an MP. Only in working together with as united a voice as we can all muster can we achieve what we are trying to achieve (and in large measure there is little in this thread that anyone who cares about the industry would disagree with. So if we agree on so many things why can’t we work together? We’ve come a long way in less than 7 years.
The gala dinner actually earns money for the Association, for charity and as for other benefits is a seperate thread all on its own. Many people here have said that the TTA are not getting the industry visibility it needs. Gala dinners are one (and very effective) way of achieving this
Getting an alternative association staretd will be the easiest thing to do. Getting people to be motivated enough to continue with and achieve all of the things that we all agree we want from an association will take a lot longer and more effort.
I am asking that you consider this, what is it about the TTA that is so wrong that you can’t try to get it fixed by getting involved from within?
Richard Choroszewski
Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd.
mailto: RichardC@nsa.com
Jase
| QUOTE (PITT Jase @ Mar 30 2007, 08:44 AM) |
| just wanted to saythe debate is good but keep in the back of your mind the rules of this forum. Dont want this to get so heated as we have to lock the thread.
Jase |
Jase,It isn’t even warm yet!!! This is just some healthy debate
I’ll let you know when we move into the Greenhouse and start picking up the bricks
Kev
Re the next post
I requote this post in full word for word but have substituted TTA for all occurrences of PTFA
| QUOTE |
From a publicity point of view I would want an association to let the public know that anyone with a TTA logo is a proved quality tiler, they can hire without worry. I would want tilers to think if I haven’t got this TTA logo I could be losing out, therefore want to join and prove myself.What are PTFA doing to bring about something like this, if anything? |
- Ceram in talks with TTA about setting up a joint Tile Interest Group
- Consideration of extending TileMark for retailers to the fixers
- Discussions on the shortcomings of the retailers training program
- Master craftsmen pilot scheme is underway
- Success in getting the office of the deputy prime minister to revoke their edict to have tiling banned from multi storey buildings on acoustic grounds. A measure that would have crippled our industry if unopposed
- Approaching finalisation of the experienced worker test scheme with a one day skills test
- TTA involved in the updating the NVQ skills test
- Work underway on a level 3 NVQ for conservation work being pushed by CITB
- Addendum issued on the technical Paper on Tiling to heated floors
- Annual members directory completely revised and rewritten
- Attendance and involvement with Skillbuild
- New tile exhibition, TTA are holding a fixers competition. TTA to design test piece and judge the event
- problems with the Association of Colleges regarding the retail training program. Assisting ACTD in re-organising the scheme
- NVQ 2 skills test developed by the TTA being piloted in Glasgow
- CSCS Experienced worker test piece developed and now tested. Gone well. Scheme to be in place by end 06
- Ongoing representation on the NSCC training committee
- Ongoing discussions of pros and cons (and at various venues) of Trustmark scheme. Concerns voiced about the admin, costs and need to have regular and ongoing inspections and financial vetting to be performed
- Involvement with Ceram to develop a new slip test
- Tile retailing ‘bolt on’ to a generic retail NVQ
- Work on Master Craftsmen NVQ Level 4 nearing completion
- Report on a successful TTA sponsored lecturer’s forum
- TTA to encourage colleges and training centres to take on skills tests attached to Experienced Worker Practical Assessment
- Discussions on individual colleges that are no longer offering tiling courses
- Tile forum to be held at HRJ premises alongside the EGM
- Discussions on independent training centres and how TTA could link to these
- Tile Forum success.
~ Discussions on new fixing standards and TTA involvement with revision of BS5385 and what the changes will mean for the industry
~ Definitions in place for what constitutes a straight line (government requirement of course)
~ Adhesive classes and recommendations
~ Correspondence with NHBC about incorrect advice on tiling procedures
~ Pendulum and new slip test developements
~ How well is the TTA doing its job?
~ What can we do for you the member?
~ Factory Tour - TTA involvement with Buildstore in Swindon devoted to promoting members of NSCC federations who offer domestic work
- Correspondence with the DTI and NSCC about quality of training generally
More can follow in subsequent posts dealing with other aspects such as Marketing, Technical, etc.
Richard Choroszewski
Neptune Shipping Agency Ltd.
mailto: RichardC@nsa.com
Kev
The letter by Mr B Howard
I am in receipt of your and attached brochure regarding training and I am seriously concerned that you are advertising practical tile fixing in 2/3 days!
You may be aware that at expotile this year the Tile Association was promoting training both for the tile fixer and tile seller and the need to have a fully accredited workforce in the construction industry.
One of the reasons why the TTA support such schemes is to ensure that the cowboy image our industry is tarred with is eventually eradicated.
That is just a few lines, so Richard it is not for the want of trying to talk these matter over with the TTA, but after years of been ignored you now want to talk but the right people are not putting anything forward as I can see.
The big issue I have with the whole thing here, is the level of ability NVQ2 gets you. If the government and the TTA are saying NVQ2 is enough to call yourself a tile fixer, then they are wrong. Its like someone getting an O level biology and starting up as a surgeon the next day.
I have an NVQ2 and it taught me next to nothing. That is what needs to change.
Now whether the TTA with their 7 years in operation, and connections with the government, can do that, I don’t know.I personally think that the TTA and the PTFA could work together, as long as we’re singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to what makes a qualified tiler.
| QUOTE (branty1uk @ Mar 30 2007, 04:28 PM) |
| Had a good read of some of the post, not had any input been working in York for the last 2 days. The big issue I have with the whole thing here, is the level of ability NVQ2 gets you. If the government and the TTA are saying NVQ2 is enough to call yourself a tile fixer, then they are wrong. Its like someone getting an O level biology and starting up as a surgeon the next day. I have an NVQ2 and it taught me next to nothing. That is what needs to change. Now whether the TTA with their 7 years in operation, and connections with the government, can do that, I don’t know.I personally think that the TTA and the PTFA could work together, as long as we’re singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to what makes a qualified tiler. |
What is amazing is we have only heard from Richard on the Forum. He constantly and honestly states he knows nothing about fixing so where are the people from TTA that do know something with their input into this little debate? Hmmm!!!
KevI am a ‘new tradesman’ …a PITT trained tiler and very proud of it as it happens.
I imagine many of the guys and gals that have been through the same course as myself will be able to relate to this theme.
When we embarked on this career we knew, in fact may still do know very little about the industry as a whole. We found in Paul and his team an unwaivering committment in our development and continuing professionalism. We can all, and i mean all tile fixers including non PITT trained, recieve unequalled support and guidance.
I want the same things as many of the forum members have mentioned already, but i want to be part of the organisation that values ME most……
